Ingrid: Hello everyone, and welcome to a special edition of the TDAM Talks podcast. Today we are celebrating International Women's Day and Women's History Month. And this year, the theme for International Women's Day is Inspire Inclusion. I am thrilled to be joined by my colleagues and friends Kim Parlee, VP, TD Wealth and host of BNN Money Talk and Priti Shokeen, head of ESG here at TD Asset Management.
Ingrid: Welcome.
Kim: Thank you.
Priti: Thank you.
Ingrid: This is so great to have you on the other side of the table, Kim!
Kim: It is, and I have to say, I think this is the first time and I'm not kidding you, in probably 20 years I've been on this side and not that side.
Ingrid: As the interviewee?
Kim: I much prefer it over there...
Ingrid: I’m going to try and make this comfortable for you. Let's give our audience a bit more context. Let's start by you sharing your career journey and telling our audience a little bit about yourself.
Kim: Yeah. Okay. So I am a single mom, of a 13 year old boy who is awesome and can be all encompassing. I joined TD about, I want to say 11. Maybe it's even 12 years ago, which is crazy because I thought when I came, you know, I just didn't think it was going to be this long. And I met people who came in and said, Oh, I've been here for 20 years, And I'm like, what? And like, I'm one of those people now, which is great. I love it. I run a team called the Strategic and Editorial Content Team. And really what it is, is we're an in-house media group and that our job is just to showcase all the smart people we have inside TD Wealth so we have a huge group of people from TDAM who we love and just bring them and just, you know, these are smart people…... that work with us. That's really what my job is, is just to do that right across organizations. So and we put out just for context, we have about 50 million views per year. We play about 6000 pieces of content per year, like it's where we do a lot.
Ingrid: That is an incredible machine.
Kim: It is and it's fun.
Ingrid: Priti, tell our audience a little bit about your role here at TD. You know, just as long not quite ten years here but.
Kim: Yes, it will happen, trust me.
Priti: Well, it may happen to me. You know, we won't speculate on that yet, but it's been three years for me at TD Asset Management. And as you mentioned, Ingrid, I'm (the) head of the ESG Research and Engagement team. Just on a personal side, you know, we are a family of four and we're two teenagers at home. So almost a 15-year-old and an almost 13-year-old.
We are an immigrant family. And the reason I'm saying that is because of the nature of this podcast. And we truly want to bring out some of the positives that come with that experience as well. On the work side, we are a team of seven. We support the investment team on ESG integration, stewardship, as well as thought leadership on environmental, social and governance issues.
And I'm super excited to be here talking to, you know, two women who I strongly appreciate and look up to.
Ingrid: That's fantastic. I want to dig a little bit deeper on the ESG piece, because I think there's a really terrific dovetail here with the theme of inspiring inclusion. And that is a key pillar of and when we think about the “S” in ESG, can you talk a little bit more about your role on the investment team and how we apply that?
Priti: Yeah, and it's a very strong pillar of our “S” strategy when it comes to company engagement. So typically we won't, you know, pick companies on metrics that are related to diversity and inclusion and equity. However, we do believe that, it has to be included in every conversation we have with every company we hold in our portfolio and asset level.
Priti: So not only on the public market side, but also on the private market side, all the property managers that we have partnerships with, other investors, we do look at, how they are performing on diversity, equity and inclusion. Female representation is a huge topic of interest for us. One key thing we do establish in our conversations is when it comes to proxy voting for shareholders and multiple public publicly listed companies, if there's not significant progress or we haven't seen a constructive discussion, we may actually vote against directors at the annual general meetings based on our 30% gender threshold.
Ingrid: Yeah, I want to scratch on that a little bit because when we think - we think about women in leadership roles in organizations, and we always talk about the number. Can you talk a little bit about the power of having that diversity of thought at leadership tables and what you witness that maybe is a little bit different and why it's important, because we all talk about the numbers, but I want to talk about the why.
Priti: Absolutely. And, you know, we can get into the business case. But first, I want to get into the equity case of it and the inclusivity case of it, Ingrid, It's just fair to have representation from a specific, section of the population, which is well-educated, has higher graduation rates, has higher grades. If you look at the metrics and be represented in the work for senior management, as well as at the board level.
So I think there's a fairness component of it. But from an investment standpoint, we also think that, you know, that kind of diversity brings diversity of thought. It hinders group think, and it brings out also some aspects which can be extremely important for establishing a company or a corporate culture. It's you know, significantly impacting some of the discussions that or decision making that happens at corporate level.
So I think, you know, from that perspective, it's it's it's hugely important, you know, the representation is important. But at the same time, you know, you talk about numbers, we talk about 30% or above all the time.
Ingrid: There's an important critical mass. Yeah, talk about that.
Priti: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, 30% is something that has been well-established in academia as well. That, nine out of ten, if you have one woman, that's not enough. Two is, still just representation. But when it comes to three or that 30% criticality, it's going beyond representation and mainstream view. So I think, it also mitigate some of the risk that comes with, representation.
Priti: So we do believe that number is the basic minimum threshold. It's not the ceiling.
Ingrid: Yeah, it is. You know, to give the women the power of that voice in the room. I noted when you introduced what your role at TD, you said that you supported the investment team. And I think that's something we do as women. You're an integral part of the investment team. And but I do note that that's sort of a piece that we often do.
Kim: It's I believe in, say, just on that point, it's, you know, that language of support to enable our team and said was where enabling them because it's a it's a core competency right. It's pretty integral to what you're doing right now.
Ingrid: You and I.
Priti: Were pointing that out.
Ingrid: It's interesting. We watch sometimes in in research meetings and our female analysts say we believe and our male analyst sometimes say, I believe and it's there are these sort of micro moments that we witness sometimes and bringing them forward and helping either women have stronger voices for themselves or our partners, recognizing the contribution we make is really important.
Ingrid: Kim, you and I have talked about how you made the decision to come to TD and it was a little bit surprising. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think it really leans into that narrative around inclusion.
Kim: Yeah, it's funny because I'll give this a funny back story that because I was a reporter and an anchor at the time was it was, it was BNN It's now BNN Bloomberg and I was on “Deadline.” I still remember this, and I think someone had called. And, often what happens when you're in that position, you're getting pitched stories, pitched ideas.
And I was like, I can't click. I hung up on them like three times. So first off, that was the thing. I was like there was a level of - they kept trying, which was really important, just given my environment, but was interesting is, I went through a lot of time and interviewed a lot of people at TD and, loved it was really excited.
But there's one part of the job that just was not going to work for me as a single mom. It just wasn't going to work. And so at the end of the at the end of the conversation, I said, you know, thank you. I think it's a great organization love it, but I can't do it. And I think there's a bit of a pause and a bit of a shock when that was said, and that was it.
And then I had someone in Human Resources call me the next day and they said, Why? And I explained why. And they said, Well, what do you need? And I think I had never been asked that, you know, that was a real moment of like, What do you mean, what do I need? I mean, it's, you know, it's always been about what you need.
And so I told them what my restrictions were around that. And I said, okay, well, if that's what you need, then let's make that happen. And I was just blown away. And I think, that really matters. I mean, that was pivotal. Pivotal in terms of what attracted me to TD. And I'm not trying to be "Pollyannish" about this.
It was really important. This is an organization that accommodated what I need. And so, you know, I think it's so important and I tell this to not just women but everybody. It's like you got to ask for what you need. And then I was to tell you earlier, it doesn't mean you're always going to get it. So you know what?
You have to be very careful to balance it, but you're not going to get it if you don't ask for it. So, you know, that was a really - that was that was big for me to understand that. And sometimes, you know, even what I needed, to be honest, it shifted some of the strategy and what my team ended up doing.
There's a real great thing that came out of it. We made a big move to digital content. You know, there's all sorts of things that came out of that. So it wasn't just to help this one person, but there's actually a business outcome that really supported us.
Ingrid: And I think we've talked a lot about this because you and I have done a lot of conversations around women and the journey, and I've been on my career journey for well over 30 years now. And I often talk about the transition from allowed. We've been allowed to be at the table to we've been accommodated to organizations truly adapting.
So even though sometimes they'll still feel steep and we have so much road behind us and we're in such a better place than we've been for a long time. So I am consistently and enthusiastically optimistic about the future for women. I want to pivot back a little bit to your experience with men and women from the side of the table that you're often sitting on interviewing.
You talk a little bit about that and sort of what are some of your observations about how women and men conduct themselves and some insights that maybe women benefit from?
Kim: Yeah, I think - I'll kind of - I've got to pull from my entire experience, not just because I've been with, TD for ten years before that was a journalist for ten years before that. And, you know, it's sometimes you hear these these things that, you know, men are much quicker to kind of talk and much quicker to get to a table.
It's true. From the evidence that I've seen, there's a reason why people say those things. And often what I see is the women we've worked with and even some of the work we've trained with over the years is, you know, these are knowledgeable, powerful women who, are slower to kind of her have their voice heard, but they're, as knowledgeable, more knowledgeable sometimes than their male counterparts that are talking.
And, this is something I said across not just at TD, but from before. So I think there's been a lot of work in just helping women learn how to get their voice heard in a way. And it's been pretty powerful. The nice thing is, too, is that when we when this happens, the power of actually getting women in front of people is other women see it, right?
And then they and they emulate that. And I'm going to take a lot of a story. You heard you talk about your daughter maybe to say that it's not even a thing anymore. Right. Like before you see something, we have to work before. And now it's something that's taken for granted that women are part of that ecosystem that we see people speaking.
Now, you have to tell a story.
Ingrid: But you do have to.
Kim: Tell the story. I know right.
Priti: Now, just in preparation of this podcast, I was talking to my daughter yesterday. I'm like, I have this podcast tomorrow and I'm not really well prepared. So she's like, she asked me, you know, what questions are you going to get? And I mentioned to her that one of the question I'm going to get is tell us about your career journey in a male dominated industry, which is finance.
And she said male dominated what?
Ingrid: Yeah.
Priti: And it just made me realize that, you know, she has no concept of, having been in a male dominated industry. That's what I aspire for her right? So it was very refreshing to hear that, probably her generation is not even going to experience any of this. And it's going to be, just an enabled world like Ingrid.
Priti: Very well put it.
Kim: Yeah. And I hope that's true. That women that when people grow up, they'll see that, too. But I do think, though, that we need to, not rest on our laurels either. At the same time. Right. Things can slip back. Things can move in different directions. And you can see it with like political forces and other things as well, too.
Kim: Like we've got to keep moving.
Ingrid: Yeah, but we can't believe could happen now if it happened. Yeah. I had two of our senior portfolio managers on this podcast last year, Alex and Anna, and we talked about women and different decision making and different perspective. So I want to sort of pull on that thread a little bit further and I want to think about it in two threads, particularly around our industry.
One is the focus on financial advice and sort of the transition of our financial services advice from one that was historically transactional and very much about, you know, rates of return to one that is more holistic and advice focused. So, Kim, from what you've seen, how do you think about the role that women play in our industry versus maybe a decade ago?
Kim: Yeah, well, I mean, there's been a huge I think there's a lot more women in the industry than there was a decade ago. So first off, you know, check. That's great. And I think, to give credit that you know, I know at TD Wealth advice, too, there's a lot more women now - senior women in the field and more front facing, which has been a big change.
So that's that's great as well, too. I think, it really comes down and a lot of the work you've done as well, Ingrid, is just understanding that this, women want a holistic conversation, like the investment management is important and it's core. But beyond that, people want to know - talk to me, as I said, like a single mother.
Kim: Talk to me as a mom of a teenager, talk about what are the things I need to be thinking about from that standpoint. And I think, that change is happening. And it's funny, too, because I think, it's important as an organization that there's two things that happen. We have to provide expertise in those areas of the things I just talked about.
So, I'm a I'm a 53 year old woman. And, you know, menopause may have come up once in my life was my conversation before. But if I heard an organization talking about that and sharing some expertise, let's say about that time of my life financially, I'd be like, Oh, check, that's great. I understand that. Second, even just by virtue of them talking about it means they get it.
And that's something I think just has to happen in terms of having it. So I think there's lots of great stuff going on. I think it's still a long way to go yet.
Ingrid: I think representation in any organization, in any field is about creating a workforce that represents the customer, the cause, the purpose that you serve, and particularly in the financial services we've talked about so many times, the share of the wallet is moving into the hands of the women, and organizations have to adapt and that's why it's been so terrific to see that real growth and leadership, but also the education around how women can be so incredibly powerful in this role.
I want to carry on that theme a little bit because I think is investors. We're always looking for the big themes in the market that are really changing the landscape. And there's a lot of talk now about AI. Right. So heavy technical, we're talking about where the productivity gains can be found. But let's put a female lens on and I'll sort of ping you first on this one, Priti.
Priti: Yeah, I think, just thinking purely from an investment standpoint and stewardship standpoint, I think, the key consideration or area of interest for me is, you know, how is it being built? What are the algorithms that are defining the models and, you know, the outcomes of those models? Is there an element of empathy or the way females think about certain things as opposed to being, you know, very driven by, certain models?
So I think that's something that is super interesting for me. I know there's a huge group called Women in Tech that focuses on this particular topic, and we as investors obviously want to approach it in our conversations with big tech companies, who are building these models for the future, it's going to define how our lives or our kids lives are going to be looking like.
Right. So it's it's very important to make sure that these models are built right where including those elements of empathy. But I know Kim has many more thoughts on that.
Kim: No, you know, and actually, I but I think, you know, yours are the the core ones, too. It's like when you're building the rules of the game, you've got to make sure the rules of the game are inclusive because they're going to govern the game for the next, you know, ten, 20, 30, 40 years. So I think that's actually the most important.
And then secondarily, I would just say on top of that is, as women think about their you know, their success in this environment, their management styles, there's, you know, some some people thinking about the fact that maybe abstract thinking, interpersonal relationships are skills. They're going to kind of move up because some of the other I'll say technical, you know, some of these might get commoditized away.
And we see that with other, you know, other things too, and some won't like, I think and honestly, people who say they know exactly where it's going don't. So I've heard from everybody on many, many different things. And so I just think there's I think women need to think that through a little bit. There could be a real opportunity to show that that that that those kinds of skills and almost build on them and really, you know, show what they can be valued for.
Ingrid: Yeah. So the shifting in the skill set, the commoditization of some of the things that were so dominant I think is going to be a theme that we see everywhere. And back to that sharing of things and I'm saying, you know, male thought, female thought, not one better, but the diversity of thought. Yeah, inclusion incredibly important. We've talked about when we were talking about gender inclusion, you've talked a little bit about being an immigrant.
I want to talk a little bit about diversity by age or women at different age and stage in the career. And I'm sort of looking at the three of us and I think loosely speaking, we're all in different decades of our journey, likely, Priti how do you think about it? You know, when you look at your career, when you look at women coming up or when you look at older women that you've looked up to, what are some of your observations on leadership?
Priti: Yeah, I think, one of the key things for me now in my journey is that I'm much more settled. I'm much more patient. And I listen more. Whereas early on in my career, there was a little bit of that impatience, the drive to keep on going without self-care. So, I think, that's become super important for me as I have progressed through my career.
It's…it's at a stage where it's middle career, I know what I want the pace of that, progression and self-care because, it's so important for women to take the time and not have the burden of the world on their shoulders and really just, sit back, think through their strategies, evaluate when faced with a challenge as well.
So I think, you know, those are some strategies that I have found very useful right now. But then some women I've really, really looked up to - they are in their prime when they're in their fifties, majority of that, the family work, the children are out of the house. There's less distractions or, pulls on their time and their focus.
So I think, women in their fifties are actually now in their prime years for leadership, for making sure that, they promote a culture of inclusivity, have more voices at the table, and they're just much more, thoughtful and stable in their thinking.
Kim: And it just it's funny, too, because I agree with 100% of everything. I just like Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. All the way through. And the other thing, too, though, I think that, I was, didn't have children. I was 40. I was later and I and had children later. And but the one thing I've discovered with, being a mother is it's I hope it's all those things on good days, all those things you said.
But also we get it done. And I think that's something I think that's something that we don't talk about that enough, is that like, if I was because if you need a job, find a mother sometimes to do that because they just know how to they know how to get it done in the face of all the things that are going on.
And I think that's something to I just I wish that that was associated more readily with because that's so true. I mean, you think about our days and just sort of what has to happen to get, you know, in terms of things you have to do.
Ingrid: And I look at both of you with teenagers and I'm further on the journey. So I'm a bird launcher of four and my baby's turning 25 this year. So I'm through that. And as you were talking, PRITI:, I thought about a male career journey as a sort of linear and I think about a woman's career journey is sort of like this with maybe a plateau where there's some balance and then an acceleration and I do think that, a woman who's achieved a lot in their career when they're in their fifties and the load that comes from the childcare and all the research says that women do take on 60 to 70% of the “C’s”, the cooking, cleaning, children piece on the home front. And no matter how balanced you are, we are unleashed with capacity later in career. And I think that's something and I don't think, you know, I think people that look up to women like yourselves, to all of us, think, Oh, it must have been easy. And we know that it's not. I think back to sitting on airport floors in snowstorms and missing children's birthdays because I was on the road.
So it's it is fascinating, but it wasn't easy. But we're here. Yeah. And it was worth every piece of it. Talk to me a little bit about mentorship and sponsorship. How important is that been in your career?
Kim: It's been so important. And it's funny because I think you get mentor and sponsorship not just from the people that you're working for. And I've been blessed with having some really great people to work for throughout my career, but also people that, you know, you're working more senior and that you kind of interact with. So it's been really important.
And I think probably the big thing is, is sometimes those mentors and sponsors push me to do things that I didn't think I could do and what that opened up, you know? And so I think that's just something I always try and keep in mind, because, when I have and not just, you know, people on my team, but just in the organizations like I, I try and kind of give them more than maybe they can handle because they can move up to that.
Right. Like there's it feels good to be able to move to that. But you have to balance at the same time with, being sensitive to what they have to manage at the same time. But I think some of the most so, I'm kind of going back and forth between the two, but it's like, you want to be able to give people a great place to work, but you got to challenge them.
And I think that's what I've about that's what I value the most of my career was people who came to me with hard problems to solve.
Ingrid: Was their difference between male and female leaders In your career?
Kim: We talked about this I think, beforehand, and I think I've had great and sometimes not so great on both. Right. And I think actually, I think you said it, so I don't want to take it away, but I look forward to the work when we actually have these conversations about it's not about a female, you know, a boss or a male one, it’s just your boss
Ingrid: A good or a bad one?
Kim: That's no longer conversation or not.
Ingrid: What do you think?
Priti: Yeah, I think, I've had both female and male bosses. You know, there are certainly differences, but at least in my view, it's very hard to generalize, because I've had really great, male bosses who have been absolutely phenomenal and fantastic and being detailed and, telling me exactly this is what you plan to do to achieve this.
Right. And I have had female bosses who have been great enablers, right? So they have said, listen, you know, I know you can do it. So you go ahead and, you know, pursue what you want to pursue and have given me those challenging assignments, as you mentioned, Kim, and put me out of my comfort zone. So you would think that a female boss would not put you in uncomfortable situations, but they do, and it's purely because of professional growth.
Priti: I've been an introvert all my life. One of my female bosses put me in a business development role and it's you know, it is I am an immigrant in this country and business development is not that easy in finance and especially in the asset management industry. For a person who's not been born and brought up here, obviously I have the expertise in education and training, but that was really a huge stretch assignment for me because, you know, being in front of people, trying to make sure we're presenting our value proposition in the right way, you know, almost in a consulting role.
So I think, you know, not that I can generalize, but I think that the role of your mentors and sponsors are so important. Just one thing I wanted to point out for the audience is also a little bit of, you know, advice on not to look for mentors and sponsors just within your organization and having a wider network because, you know, I haven't had many formal mentors and sponsors, but at the same time, every time I needed a sounding board, you know, I've found people that I can talk to who can enable me to think differently about a particular problem or solution.
So I think, you know, expanding your network outside of your organization is super helpful. It also gives you more perspective because an organization is geared to think a certain way. So I think that's really been helpful for me.
Kim: And I would just add to that, you know, I think some of the more valuable conversations I've had over especially the past five years is sometimes the reverse mentorship is like where you're getting mentored by somebody younger earlier in the career, you know, it's more kind of like, tell me what you see. You know, tell me.
Ingrid: Because they made my blind spot.
Kim: Yeah. And just, you know, and I've learned so much from that front, too. But yeah, so I've been fortunate on that front - How about you?
Ingrid: I think that, you know, I've got four kids between the ages of, in the twenties and thirties right now. And I am awestruck by the confidence, particularly of my daughter. And sometimes I will watch her and I'll say, I need to bring some of that, pardon my French, “bad-assness.” It's my own role. I think women are empathetic leaders and we care a lot about our teams and I think that's wonderful.
I also think it's a burden that we care. A lot of research showing that, you know, in the times that we've had over the last few years, women and the folks they put in their teams and the way they're carrying that emotional load can be a burden. So I think a lot about that. You know, and I heard you talking a little bit about this and the importance of self-care.
I do think we have to recognize some of those differences in our in our makeup that make us great leaders, workers, team members and respect those and take care of ourselves. Now, great conversation. I want to wrap it up with the last question for each of you. And on the theme of Inspire inclusion, what would you say to the next generation of women?
Or what advice would you give to those coming up?
Kim: First, I think I would just in terms of for those who are building their own careers is just, you know, go for it like it's just you know, there's nothing like I won't say that it's not going to be hard, but like, ask for what you want, ask for what you need. But at the same time, don't get if you get a no, it doesn't mean anything other than just change the channel, ask a different way or get the feedback.
You can get what you want with the feedback, but it was just, keep asking. And I think also I'd say is be someone who has a clearing for real feedback. I think that's something that is it's a tricky one sometimes in organizations where I think people are wary of trying to, you know, be inclusive and say the right things.
But if you're somebody who can be what I hope would be a clearing for someone who will tell you what they think and really truly give you the feedback, it's such a gift, you know, And then you can make choices.
Priti: Based hundred percent.
Kim: Yeah, yeah. It's really like that is the most important thing.
Ingrid: Maybe. What would you tell your younger self?
Priti: Well, I think my younger self I would tell myself, Be yourself, don't be scared, you know, because you're not. You're the judge of yourself. So be authentic to yourself. You know, if you have the skills, the expertise, you know, that will take you a long way. And being confident, I think that's…that's extremely important. Yeah. I think, you know, being…being myself.
Ingrid: And a member of the investment team.
Priti: And actually there's one more thing I wanted to point out, and I think some…some women and maybe even some men are not the loudest voices in the room. Right. So they…they may feel that, you know, their opinion or input is not valued, but those exact voices need to be amplified a little bit more. And I think, you know, as a manager, I try to do that within my own team, but that's something that I would encourage all women managers or even male managers to do.
You know, there may be, you know, the softest voice in the corner, but that may be very, very powerful and insightful on how things are going.
Kim: If you wish for people sometimes will lean in to you. And that's an important thing.
Ingrid: That's a great thought to finish on. Kim, thank you. Priti, thank you. And to our listeners, we hope you've enjoyed our conversation on Inspire inclusion in honour of this year's International Women's Day. Thank you.
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